Political Culture: The Rapture of Ayn Rand, Part Two

Jon Cummings January 14, 2010 35

Thanks for sticking with me after the first half of this monstrous column wrapping up our series on Ayn Rand and her overlong orgy of Objectivism, Atlas Shrugged. I realize you could have ditched me and headed for Galt’s Gulch by now; instead you’ve chosen, like Dagny Taggart (or like Al Gore in the 2000 primaries, comparing himself to Senate retiree Bill Bradley), to “stay and fight.” Dagny Taggart and Al Gore exalted in the same breath … only on Popdose!

Anyway, having devoured as much Rand material as I can stand, and then having taken a bit of time to digest it, I will now admit (please don’t tell anyone) that I find admirable elements in her philosophy – but only as it relates to the individual and the way he travels through his own life. Self-esteem, in measured quantities, is certainly a good thing. As an idealized primer for living, it’s easy to see why Objectivism might work — for some people, of particular backgrounds, means and abilities — and it’s also easy to see why many of Rand’s followers are so goddamned smug about it. As for everyone else … and as for Rand’s prescriptions for organizing (or, rather, dis-organizing) society … well, that’s another story.

My own very tentative relationship with the concept of “God,” and my personal rejection of organized religious belief, leaves me particularly open to Rand’s arguments for atheism – and she is perhaps even more persuasive on this topic than our like-minded contemporary authors. I was particularly impressed with a fascinating passage in Galt’s speech arguing that the concept of “original sin” – you know, Adam and Eve biting the apple from the “tree of knowledge” and all that – was invented as a method of turning man against his own mind, and that “mystics of spirit” have convinced men to sublimate their free will in favor of religious doctrines pitting the sinful body against the virtuous soul. Both, to Galt, are “symbols of death … A body without a soul is a corpse, a soul without a body is a ghost – yet such is [religionists’] image of man’s nature.” And with reason removed from the equation, man “was left at the mercy of two monsters whom he could not fathom or control: of a body moved by unaccountable instincts and of a soul moved by mystic revelations – he was left as the passively ravaged victim of a battle between a robot and a Dictaphone.” (A rare infusion of humor in the otherwise oppressively dour Randian landscape!)

Of course, until very recently religious stories served not only as a means of establishing and enforcing social control, but as a way of explaining humanity, the world, and death (or, if you prefer, life, the universe, and everything) to fearful people in the absence of scientific knowledge. And yes, plenty of folks still “cling” to their faith – as our President once noted indelicately — as a means of maintaining tradition and comfort in a still-uncertain world. That’s part of human nature … a nature toward which Rand often seems to have turned a blind eye and a deaf ear.

In theory, relying on individual reason and rationality in one’s personal decisions and actions, and placing the highest value on one’s own virtues, ambitions and desires are profoundly worthwhile goals. And it’s nice to think that such a worldview can work out splendidly, particularly if you have the intellectual and/or physical talents, as well as the education and the means, to live that way. Unfortunately, not everyone does. Indeed, even Rand asserted that the vast majority of people aren’t virtuous enough to put her ideas into practice. Asked by Mike Wallace in 1959 if a “weak” man is “beyond” her conception of love, Rand said, “He certainly does not deserve it … if a man wants love he can correct his flaws, his weaknesses … but he cannot expect the unearned.” Wallace: “There are very few of us, then, in this world, by your standards, who are worthy of love.” Rand: “Unfortunately, yes, very few. But it is open to everybody to make themselves worthy of it, and that is all my morality offers them.”

Which begs the question, what good is a philosophy that applies only to the “very few,” often at the expense of the many? Politically speaking, Rand yearned not merely for an end to Communism (in her home country) and “welfare state” entitlements (throughout the West), but for a return to the era before the permanent imposition of the income tax in 1913 – and before the Progressive reforms of the previous decade that curbed monopolies and trusts and offered workers minimal protection from exploitation. She insisted that a society in which each man operated rationally and in his own self-interest, and never used force against another man – which wouldn’t really be a “society” at all, she was happy to note – would be free from monopolies or exploitation. But what evidence did she have that such would be the case? In fact, as I’ve argued before, all the evidence of our history suggests exactly the opposite – that the captains of industry who built Rand’s beloved steel, rail, oil, automobile, and other industries did so on the backs of laborers who were exploited to the fullest extent possible, via low wages, long hours and dangerous working conditions. Those laborers’ lesser education, skills and/or class left Randian pursuits largely inaccessible to them – unless they were willing to accept those low wages and poor conditions as the “full value” of their labor. And generations would have been doomed to follow in their subjugated footsteps were it not for government regulation of industry … or for public schooling, for that matter, which would also fall by the wayside in Rand’s taxation-free utopia.

I’ve said this before, as well, but I believe that the downfall of Objectivism is its Social Darwinism – its refusal to account for the fact that, in a free and civilized world, an individual’s rights end at the place where another’s begin, and that if my rights and interests exist in conflict with someone else’s, they should be resolved in a manner that is fair to both parties. American economic history — much of human history, really — is a story of the struggles between management and labor, whites and blacks (and Hispanics, and Native Americans, immigrants, etc.), men and women, young and old, as they’ve competed for economic and political power, not to mention the basic freedom to pursue their interests. The path of growth among democratic governments over the last century, from taxation to regulation to entitlements, has mirrored the perceived need for correctives to be found for the imbalances in those power struggles — not to tear down those who have more power and money, but to empower and, yes, provide a “safety net” of bare-minimum subsistence and opportunity for those who have less. It is entirely possible, indeed it is downright common, to be “altruistic” in the dictionary sense – that is, to have a healthy interest in the welfare of one’s fellow man, regardless of any “value” a person in need may be to you, and to be willing to use both charity and government to “promote the general welfare” – without being “altruistic” in the Randian sense of thoroughly subjugating one’s own interests for the sake of others. Such a distinction is lost throughout Atlas Shrugged and Objectivist philosophy in general, to the novel’s (and Rand’s) discredit.

Note the word “democratic” in the paragraph above. Had a majority of self-interested Americans opposed the income tax in 1913, Social Security in 1934, or Medicare in 1965, they could have swept into power representatives who promised to overturn those programs. Assuming the health care bill passes this month, they’ll get another chance this fall and/or in 2012 – but don’t bet on such a reversal happening, even if Republicans do win big. The simple fact is that most citizens of the U.S. and other democratic societies – rich, poor, and middle class alike — approve of some amount of “redistribution of wealth” via government taxation, regulation and spending, regardless of their personal “rational” interest in the people served by the programs financed with their money. Huge majorities believe, unlike Rand, that roads, public schools, infrastructure, and a social safety net for children, seniors and the poor are worthwhile uses of government money (i.e., their own taxes). And even most conservatives believe that government is good for considerably more than Rand’s very narrow prescription: local and national security, and the protection of private property via the justice system. Citizens often vote to change course when they decide their government needs a corrective – when it is taxing and spending too much, or serving the public too little. Even taking into account the frequently negative impacts of special interests and bloated bureaucracies, part of the glory of democracy is its tendency to keep the extremes in check, and to keep governments from sliding toward the sort of totalitarianism Rand portrays in Atlas Shrugged. She often called the United States “the only moral country in the history of the world,” but it would seem she approved only of the theory embodied in its governing principles, not the reality of their execution.

According to Rand, approving of the government’s legal capacity to tax its citizens and spend their money to help other citizens – its forced altruism, in other words — is not only immoral but irrational, and even “unthinking.” She theorized in absolutes that run contrary not just to the teachings of “mystics of muscle” or “mystics of spirit,” but to human nature itself; to her, it is impossible for a “rational” New Yorker to care whether an unemployed stranger in Arizona has adequate health care, or whether an African-American stranger in Mississippi faces job discrimination. And that is where she veers from philosophy to sociopathy, and where her ideas lose their merit. Indeed, the arrogance of her stance makes one wonder if her opposition to active government was truly an outgrowth of lofty ideas about “reason” and “rationality,” or whether her emphasis on “the mind” is merely an invention designed to justify her selfishness and belittle opposing ideas. “I don’t deal with those who disagree,” she told Phil Donahue in 1980 after responding bitchily to a former acolyte in the audience who said she had turned away from Rand’s teachings. “I would love to see an honorable adversary, but I’ve stopped hoping for it. They’re not honorable in their ideas. If she’s parted from my writings, that’s her loss, not mine. She doesn’t have to bring it to me.”

No, Rand didn’t brook disagreement with much pleasantry, and labeled dissenters from her ideas “immoral” and worse. Those were not the only similarities linking Rand’s rhetoric and ideas with the political and (especially) religious leaders she held in such ill regard. “Don’t follow leaders – and don’t become one,” demanded her philosophy (Galt refused to “rule” even when begged) … yet she commanded such fealty from her followers that she insisted they call themselves “Students of Objectivism,” even as she claimed the title of “Objectivist” solely for herself. “Stop believing what the mystics teach you – think for yourself,” Galt commands … in the middle of a three-hour lecture insisting that the only “rational” thoughts are his own kind.

And then there’s the key plotline of Atlas Shrugged – the mysterious vanishing of Randian industrialists, and the ensuing tribulations of those lesser (and in most cases “immoral”) men who have been … left behind. (Ayn Rand and Timothy LaHaye, mentioned in the same breath … only on Popdose!) Yes, it’s Rand’s own Rapture, with Galt as the Redeemer who has been martyred by tyrants via torture (though, in keeping with his creed placing primacy on his love of his own life, he doesn’t bother to die) — only to return just in time to reclaim Earth in the name of … reason and selfishness. Well, it’s not a perfect analogy, but it works well enough that it must have been intentional … right? Perhaps composer Richard Halley’s “Concerto of Deliverance” should have been titled “Concerto of Revelations.”

I briefly worried, while beginning this long-winded column, that I might have trouble finding a persuasive example of the manner in which Rand’s absolutism falls apart upon close examination – in which entirely rational people balance self-interest and altruism on a day-to-day basis. Then a high-magnitude earthquake hit Haiti on Tuesday, devastating that nation’s capital city and leaving thousands dead, perhaps hundreds of thousands homeless. How many millions of people with no relatives and no economic interest in Haiti will nevertheless write checks to charity in the coming days — in amounts they can afford without bankrupting themselves? How many millions more simply smile with hope and reassurance upon hearing their governments’ leaders promise swift logistical, nutritional and financial help to the people of Haiti – help they can provide thanks to taxpayer dollars?

Thinking about the Haitian quake, in turn, made me think about Roberto Clemente, the baseball great (and Puerto Rico native) who responded so valiantly after the Nicaraguan capital was struck by an earthquake in December 1971. Clemente could hardly have placed a particularly high “value” on the “virtues” of a nation and a people that were not his own – certainly not the same value he placed on his own identity and heritage, when he demanded that baseball writers and fans stop calling him “Bobby” and use his real name. But he recognized “need” when he saw it, and saw a duty (born of the intrinsic value he placed in humanity as a whole) to use his time and his resources to help. He quickly organized three relief flights – and when he learned that the supplies were being diverted from the people who needed them, he decided to accompany the fourth plane himself. Never mind the disastrous outcome of that flight – Clemente’s decision merely to fly to Nicaragua was an act of self-sacrifice, and a breaching of his own “rational self-interest,” that Rand, from my reading of her, probably wouldn’t have approved.

Clemente, for his charity and altruism as much as for his glorious baseball career, is a hero to millions. So is Ayn Rand, to other people for very different reasons. You’ll forgive me if, in the final analysis, I choose to exalt Clemente … and if I exalt a government that has the means and the mandate to provide some relief to the people of Haiti, and maybe even ensure some access to health care for uninsured people in our own land.

By the way, guess who was the first celebrity to book a flight for Port-au-Prince this week? It was Angelina “I Wanna Play Dagny Taggart” Jolie! (Ah, altruism…) If you guessed correctly, don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. Nobody needs that much self-esteem.

  • MTRose

    The first half of your analysis is fairly good. The second wanders pretty far into left field.

    First, your view of 20th century history is way off base. If you actually look at the effects of many of the progressive laws (public education, minimum wage, anti-trust movements), you see that as a rule, they did far more harm than good (especially towards minorites and the other groups they were proposed in order to benefit) and the amount of harm they did tended to increase exponentially as said regulations were expanded. You also seem to subscribe to the (often unconscious) assumption that people had it much easier before the industrial revolution suckered everyone into the cities and factories for cheap wages and nasty conditions; this is simply not the case.

    You state that Objectivism does not recognize that one person's rights end where another begins and that disputes must be peaceably resolved by respecting both parties' rights. Where you got this idea is incomprehensible to me, because these are some of the fundamental ideas upon which objectivism is built. Her problem with Libertarians was not that their fundamental premise of “no force in human relationships” was bad, but because Libertarians did not recognize the philosophic base for that premise and thus was a movement full of people who supported ideas that were fundamentally incompatible with that premise (Communist Libertarians, for example).

    As for democratic governments, Rand was not a fan of absolute democracy. Not because she didn't think that governments existed to serve the people, but because she did not recognize the right of a majority to vote away the rights of a minority. The US is NOT a democracy, it is a constitutional republic, and with good reason; the Bill of Rights cannot be overturned by a majority vote. Rand's view was that a person's right to their property was every bit as essential a right as their right to free speech or religion, and did not recognize the right of government to take control of someone's property away from them, even by a democratic, majority vote. A democracy only has the ability to keep totalitarian impulses in check so long as its citizens do not vote for totalitarianism; at the risk of invoking Godwin's law, please remember that the Weimar Republic committed suicide by majority vote and Hitler was elected into power with all due forms of a democratic government observed in the process.

    As for altruism; Rand did not have any problem with charity, generousity, benevolence, or helping out genuine victims (people who had fallen on hard times through no fault of their own). She didn't even have a problem with altruism, so long as nobody was making HER participate in it by force (government wealth redistribution). Her problem was with government getting into the charity business and forcing people to participate whether they liked it or not. She had no problem with the idea that someone in NYC would care whether or not some unemployed person in AZ had adequate health care, you can help the poor all you like… with your resources. Not with somebody else's. You recognize this yourself when you point out that many people will write checks to Haiti in the coming days “in amounts they can afford without bankrupting themselves”. Charity (writing check's they CAN afford in the name of helping genuine victims) is fine. Altruism (writing checks they CAN'T afford in the name of duty) is foolish.

    Finally, if you think Rand's arguments were flawed and incorrect, I would recommend the writings of Milton Friedman. He comes to almost exactly the same conclusions, but his supports for those conclusions tend more to the practical to the philosophical and draw upon a wider base of economic and political research.

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  • richardgleaves

    Much better commentary than your earlier entries. I'd like to think our exchanges encouraged you to be less glib. Your final summation was much fairer and much more thoughtful. While I still disagree, you've earned my respect for your willingness to engage the ideas more fully.

    As to Haiti, Rand would merely note that when a similar earthquake struck a major city in a capitalist nation- namely San Francisco- the death toll was less than 100. This is an indicator of the value one gets by living in a free country- not only do we survive earthquakes, but we have the extra income to non-sacrificially help others when they suffer from them. She wouldn't begrudge anyone a desire to help the Haitians, but she would object to the idea that one is obligated to help regardless of one's personal judgements, opinions, desires or priorities. This is the difference between personal benevolence and moral “duty” in the Kantian sense.

    Peace.

  • richardgleaves

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ0jFyBwC7A&feat
    If you liked the Galt speech you should check out my video version of the same (12 vids so far)

  • Chuck Eufarley

    A great line I heard – “The problem with Objectivism is that 95% of the population believes that they're in the top 5%.” Reductivist, sure, but deadly accurate.

    As far as Jolie supposedly wanting to play Dagny, don't confuse an actor's desire to play a character as an endorsement of the character's actions or ideology.

  • JonCummings

    You're absolutely right–could anything be more anathema to Objectivists than Angelina's relentlessly altruistic existence? Dagny is a great character for an actress, though.

  • JonCummings

    Thank you for your kind words. I'd hate to think I wasn't glib enough, though — if not, I apologize to everyone else, and my only excuse is the vast volume of what I wanted to get said. I can assure you that I had planned a blow-out of analysis today long before you came along to deride what came before.

    Your knowledge of Rand's writings is no doubt far more complete than mine, but I think you're hedging on Rand's attitude toward disaster relief. From what I've read and seen of her, she was pretty absolute about it: If you don't have a personal stake in helping someone, it's irrational to do so, regardless of your capacity.

    And by the way, I would guess that the people of Haiti would LOVE to live in a first-world capitalist democracy — and would have loved to do so even before they were hit with an earthquake (the likes of which the region hadn't seen in 200 years, and had no reason to expect). If you believe that somehow the people of Haiti aren't “virtuous” enough to enjoy that luxury, I have a problem with that. One other thing — you may be talking about San Francisco 1989, but the 1906 quake (which, while of higher magnitude, also happened in a capitalist democracy, if my memory of history serves) was easily as devastating as Port-au-Prince. Did those earlier San Franciscans lack virtue–or did they lack the government-organized disaster relief that we have now (but Haiti doesn't), as well as an understanding of earthquake-proof building techniques, and the government regulations to require them?

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  • http://thevitaminkid.blogspot.com autodidact

    I had heard Charlize Theron was in the running for Dagny. A better casting physically IMO. Check imdb.com — says she will be Dagny.

    But Jolie might do better portraying the coldness of the character.

    I don't believe any movie can come close to doing the book justice. A 12- or 15-part miniseries, perhaps. Robert Redford once wanted to film Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance — even owned the rights to it for a time, IIRC. Insanity.

  • http://mostlymodernmedia.wordpress.com Beau

    Made it through!

    In Part I of your “Rapture,” you beat me to my point. Rand has created a straw man over 1,100 pages.

    The fundamental flaw here is that there's nothing endemic to government or science or business or religions that makes people virtuous or smart. When Reagan said talented people flocked to business rather than government, he insulted everyone who works for government (including, perhaps especially, the military) out of a sense of duty. (Also, having seen people ditch high-paying law firms for lower-paying government jobs, the quality of life is significantly better in the latter.)

    That said, I find Rand's philosophy more palatable as an argument against **any concentration of power**. That means the banking industry is just as likely to become the meddling incompetents as the government. And perhaps one can serve as a check and balance against the other.

    Galtland appears to have no checks and balances. And if you took all the frat-boy libertarians I've met over time and dumped them in one place, I guarantee you we wouldn't see a flourishing, self-sustaining society form spontaneously.

    I'd also have to argue with MTRose in the sense that progressives are usually proven right over time. Of course, I'd take that back to progressives such as Galileo and Luther. In this century, progressives were right on suffrage, integration, environmental action and more safety regulations than we can possibly list here.

    The libertarian viewpoint is always important to bear in mind. I think we should always look for ways to accomplish what we need outside of government. In fact, I think “progressives” these days often make more progress in business than in government — the former certainly has more of a healthy respect for science than the latter.

    But I also can't shake what I learn from just looking at landscapes. Governments build parks and grand public buildings for all to share, and they set regulations for the common good. Left to individuals' devices, we get sprawling Wal-Marts and cars parked in front yards.

    All of which explains why I need to start a movement dedicated to John Stuart Mill. To my knowledge, though, he didn't leave any 1,100-page works sprinkled with weird ideas on sex. That's a marketing drawback.

  • peterpressure

    When you say the Haitian Government or its people had no reason to suspect an earthquake would hit them, check your premises: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=experts+wa
    Note: More advanced & free capitalist nations provided them with this knowledge.

    Richad Gleaves & Ayn Rands analysis is correct, freedom & capitalism is the only way to ensure a prosperous and technologicaly superior nation safeguard against any type of man made or natural catastrophe.

    Sadly, Haitian aid throughout the decades has only acted to keep in power the corrupt and anti-capitalist statists. I think the point is, we should always object to the idea that one is obligated to help another regardless of one's personal judgements, opinions, desires or priorities but never begrudge someone for doing so. It actually makes a lot of sense!

  • peterpressure

    Keith Lockitch, a fellow at the Ayn Rand Institute in New York City, said Haiti, the most impoverished nation in the Western Hemisphere, suffered terribly because its economy makes it much less resilient to disasters like earthquakes and hurricanes.

    “The toll of death and human suffering is much worse in a pre-industrial country like Haiti than it would be from a comparable quake near, say, San Diego,” Lockitch said. “What the tragedy in Haiti should make us realize is just how important industrial development under capitalism is in keeping people as safe as possible from such events.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/15/ameri

  • http://thevitaminkid.blogspot.com autodidact

    Jon, you've written a good description of your reactions. There are so many good ideas in the responses, too. Now for the view from the Tea Party and a “bitter cling-er”:

    The Declaration holds it as self-evident that the Creator has endowed man with, among other things, a right to liberty. C.S. Lewis (in Mere Christianity) submits that the Creator has endowed man with conscience. This basic inner foundation of right and wrong seems to be very similar the world over, Lewis argues. Conscience is built into the human animal, part of our nature, our being. Through conscience, we understand the goodness, the rightness of altruistic behavior — on the small scale and the grand scale. Conscience tells us that generosity, altruistic giving, even self-sacrifice are “good” and indeed we freely honor these sacrifices and gestures. We stand in admiration and awe of them. We also understand, nearly universally, that naked selfishness and blind greed are wrong, immoral, and when they reach an extreme, many would call them evil. This is a truth of human nature. Even when we do not follow the inner compass of conscience, it still exists. It still nags us.

    To the extent that Rand/Objectivism attempts to argue around these innate human values, it is a refusal to acknowledge the truth of human nature. It is actually a rejection of truth, a refusal to accept that “A is A.” In some respects, perhaps Ayn Rand's philosophy was a subconscious attempt to reconcile the nagging of her own conscience, when her desires conflicted with the moral law within.

    Is there a place on earth where we will not find human altruism, or what the New Testament calls agape love — outward-directed, unselfish action? If there is, it is a place I would not want to live.

    On the other hand, Rand defends personal liberty ably, even if she takes the concept too far. Progressives have dismissed another self-evident “A is A” truth. Rand clearly saw it, although I don't think she specifically says much about it. Her book illustrates it. The self-evident truth of history is that power corrupts. You may find an occasional example of a relatively benign monarchy, but the exceptions prove the rule that under normal conditions increased power trends asymptotically toward absolute tyranny. Bigger government leads to more corrupt government and less effective government. One follows the other as night follows day. (To the extent that corporations or cabals of rich men gain such power, surely the same rule applies.)

    Jon, you wrote of the “path of growth among democratic government over the last century from taxation to regulation to entitlements…” but you left out the last stage. Bankruptcy. Or as Thatcher is said to have concluded, “The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” The bankruptcy is not only financial, it is moral. See “power corrupts” above. Taxation? Yes, unless you have clever accountants, special trusts, or have corporation-specific and industry-specific exemptions written into the incomprehensible reams of our tax code. Regulation? Can be conveniently ignored if the administration is your friend and does not enforce it. Entitlements? Yes, the firms who bought bad mortgage debt are *entitled* to cash out at the expense of honest prudent businesses and average taxpayers — over 2 trillion dollars of mortgage backed securities purchased by the Federal Reserve so far! (That means our money is now backed at least partly by toxic waste mortgage debt.) And this will be at the expense of stunting the economic prospects of your child's future, Jon, unless he finds his way into the oligarchy where rules for the other classes do not apply.

    Government must be about seven times more powerful and influential, in terms of its proportion of GDP, than it was 100 years ago. That means that our leaders would have to be seven times more virtuous, to resist the pull toward corruption. No sane person believes that is the case. We are suffering from massive bribery, corruption, favoritism, nepotism, and phony promises that can never be met. Power corrupts. It is a law of nature. A is A. Ignore it, minimize it, excuse it, and we lose.

    The prescription is more liberty. At the very least we need a decentralization of power. Ayn Rand may have written a flawed defense of liberty, but in these desperate times, I'll take a flawed but powerful defense over a weak defense or capitulation (i.e. “moderate” Republicans). Our government is not so virtuous as to be able to honestly micro-manage our lives, down to the point of even dictating my choice of LIGHT BULBS. And even if our leaders WERE virtuous enough, they aren't smart enough.

  • MichaelM

    It would take a comment twice the length of your two page post to catalog its errors. I wish I had the time … two will have to suffice:

    1. “Don’t follow leaders – and don’t become one,” demanded her philosophy (Galt refused to “rule” even when begged) … yet she commanded such fealty from her followers that she insisted they call themselves “Students of Objectivism,” even as she claimed the title of “Objectivist” solely for herself.”

    Objectivism is the proper name Rand gave to her own personal philosophy. It refers to that particular set of identifications and principles in the same way that Aristotelianism refers to the ideas of Aristotle and no one else. Her request was that people not mislead others by presenting ideas in the name of Objectivism that were not part of her philosophy. That is completely in keeping with the historical tradition of referring to the followers of a philosopher as “in the school of…” or “student of…”

    In one of her very earliest TV interviews she herself referred to those who embraced her ideas as “Objectivists” but thought better of it later when interest in the philosophy exploded with the spread of the tape lectures by NBI and others began to debate it and write about it. Rand was primarily concerned with maintaining the integrity of the philosophy. The issue is now moot. She is dead and her philosophy is the closed body of works she either wrote or approved. Common usage, especially via the internet, has also now firmly established “Objectivists” as the proper word to indicate one who adopts her philosophy as their own. But one can only be an Objectivist to the degree one agrees with those ideas, just as you cannot be a Kantian while disagreeing with him. Thus your obvious implication that she contradicted her own writing in Atlas is underinformed (or dishonest).

    Also, Rand never commanded fealty from her followers. “The Collective” who were her inner circle of associates are another matter entirely. They were people who seemed extraordinarily intelligent and committed to the philosophy from varying fields of endeavor. Under her guidance they applied her ideas to their fields and contributed articles and lectures that have become part of the body of works that constitute the philosophy with her approval.

    The so-called “excommunications” from that group were always the result philosophical disagreements that she could not allow to be incorporated in works that would be considered as approved by her. For instance, if she had lived to see it, she most certainly would have cut off all relations with Greenspan when he abandoned what little part of Objectivism he had toyed with early on and took the job at the Fed. Objectivism clearly regards management of the monetary system by the Fed as a violation of individual rights.

    Ultimately, a claim that she demanded fealty is foolish on the face of it — like calling Objectivists “cultish” — and you would have grasped that immediately if you had just read The Objectivist Ethics in The Virtue of Selfishness. Rationality and Independence are two of the primary virtues of that ethics. It is not possible to be cultish or to demand fealty of the type you are inferring without violating the Objectivist ethics. If you are acting cultish, you cannot claim to be an Objectivist. Rand specifically warned those who admired her ideas that Objectivism was her personal philosophy, and although others were of course welcome to adopt her ideas into their own philosophy, they were advised not to adopt ideas without independently validating them on their own.

    ————————————

    2. “Clemente’s decision merely to fly to Nicaragua was an act of self-sacrifice, and a breaching of his own “rational self-interest,” that Rand, from my reading of her, probably wouldn’t have approved.”

    This is preposterous. In the context of ethics, altruism means that in choosing from alternatives per the hierarchy of one's values, one ought to opt for the lower value and forsake the higher value out of some asserted sense of duty or obligation. Altruism requires one to suffer loss in order to be virtuous. Egoism, on the other hand is immanently more benevolent. It demands only that all values be acquired by voluntary exchange.

    Your particular failure is that you are too naive to comprehend the possible rational values to oneself of helping others in distress. Your claim that Clemente is making a “sacrifice” presumes he was consciously choosing to forgo something he valued more than contributing to the relief effort. Otherwise, it would not have been a sacrifice. You are degrading him and those in distress by implying that he did not regard them as worth helping, but he did it anyway out of some duty someone intimidated him into believing. Then you degrade me and all other Objectivists by accusing us of operating on principles that are not to be found in the philosophy. Altruism is inherently degrading.

  • JonCummings

    And the award for Most Stereotypes Unintentionally Fed By One Comment goes to…

    I think you're protesting waaaaaay too much on the whole “fealty” thing. Frankly, I'm not all that interested in Rand's relationships with her followers–it all seems kind of tawdry–though I appreciate you using the word “excommunication,” and I thank you for bringing up Greenspan, because I had made a point not to do it myself. (Seems to me that if Greenspan ran the Fed while calling himself an Objectivist (no matter what you want to call him), then wholeheartedly admitted that projecting that philosophy (i.e., advancing deregulation) while in that job was a huge miscalculation, then you all have some work to do amongst yourselves.

    As far as Clemente goes, we've heard so many definitions and caveats regarding “altruism” since I started this series that it seems the actual definition is “I know it when I see it, and I can explain away anything that doesn't seem very nice in the moment.” Your attempt to turn my argument back on me and say I “degraded” him for suggesting he wasn't acting out of self-interest was a clever bit of bullshit, but doesn't make a lick of sense.

    Thank you, however, for adding “foolish” and “naive” to the litany of words used to deride a critic of Rand.

  • JonCummings

    Thanks for this comment. It is very well-argued. There are huge chunks of it that I disagree with, of course, but I've rarely read a better statement of your particular (Christian AND libertarian) point of view. If only I believed it actually represented the intellectual level of most Tea Party folk.

    You and I will always approach politics from very different angles, not to mention partisan viewpoints. Your laser-like focus on corruption, it seems to me, is rooted in your general belief that “government doesn't work to solve problems, so we should be scaling it back, not expanding it.” I detest the corruption, and shady deals, and inefficiencies in government as well, and I would love to see all parties come together in a Herculean effort to end all of that. (I'd also like Americans to find an equilibrium between all the stuff they want and their willingness to pay for it — both in their homes and from their government. But that's not very likely, either.)

    However — because I believe government action is frequently necessary and beneficial in solving problems that the free market and interpersonal relations can't or won't solve themselves — I choose to place my primary focus not on process, but on outcomes. Recognizing that the system reeks, and that its flaws (as much as the differing viewpoints that must be reconciled) preclude the arrival at solutions that are even close to ideal, what are the best outcomes that can be achieved? The answer, to me, has never been to say, “This can't be done pristinely, so don't do anything.” It's been to say, “Once the sausage has been made and we've scraped the offal from the floor, will this actually help people enough to be worth doing?”

    My answer to that will usually be different from yours. You believe the end results of progressivism are socialism, bankruptcy and loss of liberty. I believe the end results of libertarianism are gross, unacceptable inequities and suffering, and quite possibly chaos. That's why we should always work toward rational — yes, truly “rational” — compromises, both on individual issues and on the future of our society in general. You'll never get an end to the income tax, regulations or entitlements, I'll never get nonprofit health care, and neither of us will ever get a squeaky-clean government or an oligarchy that doesn't seek sweetheart deals or political favors. What CAN we accomplish?

  • http://www.popdose.com Ted

    Interestingly enough, it's not self-interested capitalism that changes building codes to make structures safer against natural disasters like earthquakes. Rather, it's that horrible thing (i.e., government) that forces capital to comply with the democratic wishes of the masses (through their representative in places like the U.S.) to make buildings withstand earthquakes. Those wishes eventually get codified in laws that force builders to design buildings in such a way that they don't crumble after a major earthquake.

  • http://www.popdose.com Ted

    It's a Randian conceit that the definition of altruism had been refashioned to mean something other than what's generally accepted as the unselfish concern for others. Since selfishness is a pillar of her point of view, it's important to her to describe altruism in terms of how the concern for others affects an individual's ego in a negative manner.

    Nietzsche was very much about the strength of the individual, but even he said that helping others (i.e., altruism) was something that came from an overflowing of power an individual had. In other words, it's a kind of “trickle down” view of helping others he subscribed to. If you don't have the means to write a check, or give in some other way to relieve the suffering of people you don't know, then you shouldn't do it since it can make your situation much worse.

    On an individual level, it's clear that one shouldn't write checks that can't be cashed for relief efforts. However, in your example of Clemente, it's clear that he was in an economic position to be altruistic in a way that would have an effect on a large number of people. Money does indeed talk, and Clemente, like many governments — to a larger extent — have the ability to relieve the suffering of people they don't know simply because they are unselfishly concerned for the well-being of others because they have the power to do so. Looking at the devastation after the earthquake in Haiti, and the large scale human suffering that is happening, it takes an amazing level of misanthropy not to be moved to action after seeing the images of death, destruction, and displacement that Haitians are going through right now.

  • http://thevitaminkid.blogspot.com autodidact

    If it was only between you and me, we probably could come up with something split down the middle, because I consider myself a practical man as well. Unfortunately, the powers that be are not listening to either one of us very much. And it doesn't change the fact that nationally, we have fifty trillion dollars of debt that individuals, businesses, corporations, states, and the federal government owe to… somebody. I think it is senseless to talk about reforming anything until we deal with that monster. Otherwise it is like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    (On that topic, double dip recession is coming, I believe. Rail traffic is already double dipping. http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/187… )

    I just want to throw out one other idea. Two days ago I listened to FDR's first inaugural address from 1933, which was the depths of the depression. FDR tried to pump-prime and “stimulate” us out of depression. It did not work. You should have a look at unemployment statistics from 1933 up until war production got cranking. But while I found some of his statements admirable, and I do respect him as a war leader very much, I also heard things that, with a little bit of amplification, would sound like what the socialist goons in Atlas Shrugged were saying. I posit that Rand, having to listen to 13 years of this kind of claptrap (which is what it sounded like to her), found FDR a great motivation in her writing of that novel. She just exaggerated and extended the Rooseveltian themes, and made those words come out of her villains. I could be totally wrong about this, but my intuition tells me I am not. I believe I will explore this further — track down some more speeches and proclamations of FDR, and compare those to the material I just reviewed in Atlas Shrugged.

  • JonCummings

    Katrina.

  • peterpressure

    Ted, It may not be “self-interested capitalism” that changes building codes to make structures safer against natural disasters like earthquakes, but it is capitalism which pays for those changes.

    What gave the builder or the Government the funds to even make structures safer against natural disasters? You have it backwards, Capitalism affords us the funds to pass and pay for onerous regulations, not the other way around. Without Capitalism, wed be living in shanty towns, which I will note, do not fall down during Earthquakes.

  • peterpressure

    Yes, Katrina, What about it?

    Perhaps that was a snide reference to Hurricane Katrina, and how the Government-built levees broke because the Government kept sending Lousiana more money to build better levees but they used it for other non-levee purposes.

    Are you somehow implying our current Government and the Lousiana State government is somehow the embodiment of free markets and Rands ideas?

    I really am not sure what you are implying here by your one word statement. Please Expand.

  • JonCummings

    The question is, what the hell are you talking about? The logic in your various comments here is all over the place.

    Above, you said “freedom and capitalism is the only way to ensure … yada yada yada … safeguard (against) catastrophe.” This sort of statement is being tossed around by Randians and other libertarians lately–but it's a red herring that won't help the people of Haiti one little bit. Besides that, Katrina quite obviously contradicts the statement.

    The varying fates of the haves and have-nots in New Orleans was emblematic, if nothing else, of the disparities between rich and poor under capitalism. And while I suppose you mean to juxtapose your concept of “freedom” with America's (horribly socialist!) system of income taxes, regulations and domestic infrastructure spending, I would suggest that a private system of levee maintenance wouldn't have left N.O. any less underwater than the federal government's pooch-screwing did. Who would fund the private company that built and maintained them, anyway? The working-class people of the 9th Ward, via some sort of rundown-home-owners' association for which they couldn't afford the dues?

    Similarly, there's no reason on earth why Americans would, or should, trust an unregulated building industry to construct homes and stores and skyscrapers that would withstand a major California earthquake. You seem, in your response to Ted's comment below, to accept such building codes as a truism for which we can thank our lucky capitalist stars–but that would seem to contradict your call for more “freedom.”

    One other thing–where did you get your invention about “the government (sending) Louisiana more money to build better levees but (the state using) it for other non-levee purposes? It is an indisputed fact that the Bush administration got Congress to agree to cut funding for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' N.O. levee augmentation budget by 50 percent (Bush wanted to cut it by 67 percent). The levees were federally built and federally maintained…and then not maintained…and funding for such projects were not funneled through the state government. You can look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_prepared… and here http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/blumenthal/2… for the details.

  • peterpressure

    “The question is, what the hell are you talking about? The logic in your various comments here is all over the place.”

    Lets analyze yours, shall we?

    “Above, you said “freedom and capitalism is the only way to ensure … yada yada . . . Katrina quite obviously contradicts the statement.”

    Are you assuming our current Government and the Lousiana State government is the embodiment of free markets, Rands ideas and capitalism?
    You are wrong.

    “The varying fates of the haves and have-nots in New Orleans was emblematic, if nothing else, of the disparities between rich and poor under capitalism.”

    You are begging me to ask the question if you even know what type of system we currently have in this Country.

    “I would suggest that a private system of levee maintenance wouldn't have left N.O. any less underwater than the federal government's pooch-screwing did. “

    Again, assuming things you do not know and are in fact unknowable. Bad Logic my friend.

    “You seem, in your response to Ted's comment below, to accept such building codes as a truism for which we can thank our lucky capitalist stars–but that would seem to contradict your call for more “freedom.”

    Without capitalism, you and your ilk would have no one elses $$ to rob & spend as you assume is best for the “common good” at the expense of Individual Rights & Freedom.

    “One other thing–where did you get your invention about “the government (sending) Louisiana more money to build better levees but (the state using) it for other non-levee purposes? It is an indisputed fact that the Bush administration got Congress to agree to cut funding for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' N.O. levee augmentation budget by 50 percent (Bush wanted to cut it by 67 percent). The levees were federally built and federally maintained…and then not maintained…and funding for such projects were not funneled through the state government. You can look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_prepared… and here http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/blumenthal/2… for the details.”

    My You have a Short Memory, (from huff po, I assume you trust them): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/23/new-or
    “The trouble so far stirs up bad memories: Of the four decades of excruciatingly slow levee building after Betsy.

    Betsy was eerily similar to Katrina. The levees broke. Water reached roof tops and people clung to trees for survival. A flotilla of rescuers worked for days in lingering floodwaters.

    In Betsy's aftermath, President Lyndon B. Johnson _ like President Bush _ pledged to rebuild New Orleans and make it safe from hurricanes. Little more than a month after the storm, Congress gave the corps $85 million to build a Category 3 hurricane levee system.

    By 1976, though, the Government Accountability Office found the completion date for the work had slipped 13 years, from 1978 to 1991. Costs had soared to $352 million. By 1982, the GAO found that the project's cost had increased to $757 million and the agency said the work would not get done by 2008.

    Katrina's storm surge laid bare the incomplete and inadequate work.

    What happened? By 1968, a Congress worn down by the Vietnam war and economic turmoil began reining in spending; at the same time, the work met resistance from Louisiana politicians, communities, environmentalists and businesses fighting for individual interests.

    For example, the corps scrapped a plan in the 1970s to build a floodgate at the entrance to Lake Pontchartrain out of concern that it would impede boats and marine life. Next, the alternate plan to build gates at the mouths of city drainage canals was rejected. Finally, the corps built floodwalls on the canals _ and they broke during Katrina.

    Can this sort of history repeat itself?”

    More Government $$ = more mismanagement = more waste = more theft of Individual Freedom for four Decades.
    Keep blaming Bush and keep living in the last decade.

    All I can ask you Jon is to go back and re-read Ayn Rand, you are either mis-reading it, or simply not understanding how prophetic is was in its time. If we had free unregulated commerce in this country anymore and the Government did not create any Levees in Lousiana, Would anyone with A Sane Mind even live below the sea level?

    But you know what, unlike you, I do not need to speculate and assume to know things that I do not know because at the end of the day, my principle can hold up on its own, unlike yours.

    I have no right to take something un-earned from someone else. You seem to think that you do and that will somehow make life better for the greatest number of people. Somehow if only Government had unlimited funds to tap into, they could have made it safer to live below sea-level, imagine that sort of logic?

    Also, I had to note, you brought Bush into this, not me. I have no love for him at all. Why on Earth you would drag Bush into an anti-capitalism, anti-Ayn Rand argument is beyond me, what type of logic is this?

    Get it in your head, America is a mixed economy, this is what we have today, you support this to some extent, this is not what Ayn Rand was proposing and this has nothing to do with George W Bush. Get over him already.

    Keep blaming the failings of our supposed capitalist free markets and not its virtues, and keep avoiding what we all know we have had for the last 100 years, a mixed economy. This is 2 easy to refute brotha.

  • JonCummings

    And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen–proof positive that Objectivists are never wrong. Peter, you never managed to refute, or even really contradict any of the arguments–you merely used semantics and changed the subject on your erroneous previous statement about the feds “sending (the Louisiana state government) more money…but they used it for non-levee purposes.” Nothing in the HuffPo article you quote backs up that statement.

    I never suggested that we live in a “pure” capitalist system, nor that our current system of government bears any resemblance to a Randian fantasyland. The difficulty of arguing with an Objectivist is that your ideas are irrefutable, at least in your own mind, because your (and Rand's) idea of the true and the right is that fantasyland — a place that never has existed, and never will exist. It's a world where more than a tiny minority of the people come to agree with you, where governments mostly cease to function so that your vision of pure capitalism and freedom can come to pass … and where capitalists then behave in a manner that not only serves their own self-interest, but benefits their fellow “traders” as well, and everyone (or, at least, everyone that's left after those without “virtue” die off) live in happy, mutually money-grubbing harmony. The most laughable part is the last one — the idea that capitalists in your Social-Darwinist world, freed from the bonds of taxes and regulation, would act in ways that would make the world liveable for more than a very few.

    But there I go again, “assuming things I do not know and are in fact unknowable.” Ironic that you chastise me for engaging in conjecture about nonexistent circumstances, when doing exactly that is all Objectivists have — imagining how much better things would be in your Randian Shangri-La, and deriding everything that happens in the real world (and everyone who chooses to make the best of it or try to fix it) based on that never-gonna-happen standard. It's awfully tiresome.

  • peterpressure

    Yes, I said Objectivists are never wrong and you know what, you are Always correct too!
    Shame on me for thinking I had a right to the fruits of my own labor. What a Scrooge I am!
    Katrina proves me wrong!

    Instead of actually debating the principles or your assertions, you simply evade and pretend as if your shaming me and Ayn Rand for the entire community to see. Oh my! What an attack!

    Listen, you are the one who said Katrina is the fault of Capitalism/Bush. What on earth does that have to do with Ayn Rand, seriously?

    The HuffPo article I cited tells the tale of a Government trying to for many decades, make the uninhabitable, habitable, at ever rising costs to the taxpayer. Rising debts, deficits, entitlement programs paying out more than they take in. None of this concerns you. You simply blame “money-grubbing” capitalists and leave corrupt politicians off the hook. You say, if only we gave more $$, if only we paid for more upgrades to the levees.

    Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding?He did slash funding for levee projects. But the Army Corps of Engineers says Katrina was just too strong. http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html
    Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.
    It is not so clear whether the money Bush cut from levee projects would have made any difference, however, and we're not in a position to judge that.We don't know whether the levees would have done better had the work been completed. But the Corps says that even a completed levee project wasn't designed for the storm that actually occurred.

    Check your facts, Ok? All you have is a Salon article, oh my what a source!

    You fail to answer whether any of your accusations upon capitalism are even true. You just chirp one word statements like “Katrina” as if that one word is a damnation upon the idea of capitalism!

    Cut out all the talk and get to the heart of it.

    Do you believe that you or the Government has an unearned right to others property? You do
    And for what?

    You won't respond. Just pretend to mock the messenger instead of refuting the message.
    You do not even believe in Individual Rights.

    You said:“where capitalists then behave in a manner that not only serves their own self-interest, but benefits their fellow “traders” as well, and everyone (or, at least, everyone that's left after those without “virtue” die off) live in happy, mutually money-grubbing harmony.”

    Sounds perfect to me. Keep attacking the messenger man. You are the money-grubber, not me. I only have what I earn.

  • peterpressure

    Jon,
    You start from the premise that not all humans can be virtuous. You think only a small minority have that privilege, and thats why the “very few” privileged have to sacrifice for the non-privileged. I reject that notion.

    From your article:Which begs the question, what good is a philosophy that applies only to the “very few,” often at the expense of the many?

    Which begs the question, how does a philosophy that preaches Individual Rights work to anyones expense?

    Which begs another question, What good is the philosophy you want that supplies to the majority what you deem “common good”, at the direct expense of the minority (in your view) traders?

    How does majority rule work out again?

    Keep evading.

  • JonCummings

    You get the last word, big guy. Revel in it. And don't forget, tax day is April 15.

  • peterpressure

    Keep evading a discussion about what are basic human principles, so you can favor “mob rule”. Hopefully it makes you feel less guilty thinking you can help the looters.

    In the end, Man will always yearn to be free. On April 15 I'll pay my taxes and go protest with like minded folk. http://taxdayteaparty.com/

  • peterpressure

    “The question is, what the hell are you talking about? The logic in your various comments here is all over the place.”

    Lets analyze yours, shall we?

    “Above, you said “freedom and capitalism is the only way to ensure … yada yada . . . Katrina quite obviously contradicts the statement.”

    Are you assuming our current Government and the Lousiana State government is the embodiment of free markets, Rands ideas and capitalism?
    You are wrong.

    “The varying fates of the haves and have-nots in New Orleans was emblematic, if nothing else, of the disparities between rich and poor under capitalism.”

    You are begging me to ask the question if you even know what type of system we currently have in this Country.

    “I would suggest that a private system of levee maintenance wouldn't have left N.O. any less underwater than the federal government's pooch-screwing did. “

    Again, assuming things you do not know and are in fact unknowable. Bad Logic my friend.

    “You seem, in your response to Ted's comment below, to accept such building codes as a truism for which we can thank our lucky capitalist stars–but that would seem to contradict your call for more “freedom.”

    Without capitalism, you and your ilk would have no one elses $$ to rob & spend as you assume is best for the “common good” at the expense of Individual Rights & Freedom.

    “One other thing–where did you get your invention about “the government (sending) Louisiana more money to build better levees but (the state using) it for other non-levee purposes? It is an indisputed fact that the Bush administration got Congress to agree to cut funding for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' N.O. levee augmentation budget by 50 percent (Bush wanted to cut it by 67 percent). The levees were federally built and federally maintained…and then not maintained…and funding for such projects were not funneled through the state government. You can look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_prepared… and here http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/blumenthal/2… for the details.”

    My You have a Short Memory, (from huff po, I assume you trust them): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/23/new-or
    “The trouble so far stirs up bad memories: Of the four decades of excruciatingly slow levee building after Betsy.

    Betsy was eerily similar to Katrina. The levees broke. Water reached roof tops and people clung to trees for survival. A flotilla of rescuers worked for days in lingering floodwaters.

    In Betsy's aftermath, President Lyndon B. Johnson _ like President Bush _ pledged to rebuild New Orleans and make it safe from hurricanes. Little more than a month after the storm, Congress gave the corps $85 million to build a Category 3 hurricane levee system.

    By 1976, though, the Government Accountability Office found the completion date for the work had slipped 13 years, from 1978 to 1991. Costs had soared to $352 million. By 1982, the GAO found that the project's cost had increased to $757 million and the agency said the work would not get done by 2008.

    Katrina's storm surge laid bare the incomplete and inadequate work.

    What happened? By 1968, a Congress worn down by the Vietnam war and economic turmoil began reining in spending; at the same time, the work met resistance from Louisiana politicians, communities, environmentalists and businesses fighting for individual interests.

    For example, the corps scrapped a plan in the 1970s to build a floodgate at the entrance to Lake Pontchartrain out of concern that it would impede boats and marine life. Next, the alternate plan to build gates at the mouths of city drainage canals was rejected. Finally, the corps built floodwalls on the canals _ and they broke during Katrina.

    Can this sort of history repeat itself?”

    More Government $$ = more mismanagement = more waste = more theft of Individual Freedom for four Decades.
    Keep blaming Bush and keep living in the last decade.

    All I can ask you Jon is to go back and re-read Ayn Rand, you are either mis-reading it, or simply not understanding how prophetic is was in its time. If we had free unregulated commerce in this country anymore and the Government did not create any Levees in Lousiana, Would anyone with A Sane Mind even live below the sea level?

    But you know what, unlike you, I do not need to speculate and assume to know things that I do not know because at the end of the day, my principle can hold up on its own, unlike yours.

    I have no right to take something un-earned from someone else. You seem to think that you do and that will somehow make life better for the greatest number of people. Somehow if only Government had unlimited funds to tap into, they could have made it safer to live below sea-level, imagine that sort of logic?

    Also, I had to note, you brought Bush into this, not me. I have no love for him at all. Why on Earth you would drag Bush into an anti-capitalism, anti-Ayn Rand argument is beyond me, what type of logic is this?

    Get it in your head, America is a mixed economy, this is what we have today, you support this to some extent, this is not what Ayn Rand was proposing and this has nothing to do with George W Bush. Get over him already.

    Keep blaming the failings of our supposed capitalist free markets and not its virtues, and keep avoiding what we all know we have had for the last 100 years, a mixed economy. This is 2 easy to refute brotha.

  • JonCummings

    And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen–proof positive that Objectivists are never wrong. Peter, you never managed to refute, or even really contradict any of the arguments–you merely used semantics and changed the subject on your erroneous previous statement about the feds “sending (the Louisiana state government) more money…but they used it for non-levee purposes.” Nothing in the HuffPo article you quote backs up that statement.

    I never suggested that we live in a “pure” capitalist system, nor that our current system of government bears any resemblance to a Randian fantasyland. The difficulty of arguing with an Objectivist is that your ideas are irrefutable, at least in your own mind, because your (and Rand's) idea of the true and the right is that fantasyland — a place that never has existed, and never will exist. It's a world where more than a tiny minority of the people come to agree with you, where governments mostly cease to function so that your vision of pure capitalism and freedom can come to pass … and where capitalists then behave in a manner that not only serves their own self-interest, but benefits their fellow “traders” as well, and everyone (or, at least, everyone that's left after those without “virtue” die off) live in happy, mutually money-grubbing harmony. The most laughable part is the last one — the idea that capitalists in your Social-Darwinist world, freed from the bonds of taxes and regulation, would act in ways that would make the world liveable for more than a very few.

    But there I go again, “assuming things I do not know and are in fact unknowable.” Ironic that you chastise me for engaging in conjecture about nonexistent circumstances, when doing exactly that is all Objectivists have — imagining how much better things would be in your Randian Shangri-La, and deriding everything that happens in the real world (and everyone who chooses to make the best of it or try to fix it) based on that never-gonna-happen standard. It's awfully tiresome.

  • peterpressure

    Yes, I said Objectivists are never wrong and you know what, you are Always correct too!
    Shame on me for thinking I had a right to the fruits of my own labor. What a Scrooge I am!
    Katrina proves me wrong!

    Instead of actually debating the principles or your assertions, you simply evade and pretend as if your shaming me and Ayn Rand for the entire community to see. Oh my! What an attack!

    Listen, you are the one who said Katrina is the fault of Capitalism/Bush. What on earth does that have to do with Ayn Rand, seriously?

    The HuffPo article I cited tells the tale of a Government trying to for many decades, make the uninhabitable, habitable, at ever rising costs to the taxpayer. Rising debts, deficits, entitlement programs paying out more than they take in. None of this concerns you. You simply blame “money-grubbing” capitalists and leave corrupt politicians off the hook. You say, if only we gave more $$, if only we paid for more upgrades to the levees.

    Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding?He did slash funding for levee projects. But the Army Corps of Engineers says Katrina was just too strong. http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html
    Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.
    It is not so clear whether the money Bush cut from levee projects would have made any difference, however, and we're not in a position to judge that.We don't know whether the levees would have done better had the work been completed. But the Corps says that even a completed levee project wasn't designed for the storm that actually occurred.

    Check your facts, Ok? All you have is a Salon article, oh my what a source!

    You fail to answer whether any of your accusations upon capitalism are even true. You just chirp one word statements like “Katrina” as if that one word is a damnation upon the idea of capitalism!

    Cut out all the talk and get to the heart of it.

    Do you believe that you or the Government has an unearned right to others property? You do
    And for what?

    You won't respond. Just pretend to mock the messenger instead of refuting the message.
    You do not even believe in Individual Rights.

    You said:“where capitalists then behave in a manner that not only serves their own self-interest, but benefits their fellow “traders” as well, and everyone (or, at least, everyone that's left after those without “virtue” die off) live in happy, mutually money-grubbing harmony.”

    Sounds perfect to me. Keep attacking the messenger man. You are the money-grubber, not me. I only have what I earn.

  • peterpressure

    Jon,
    You start from the premise that not all humans can be virtuous. You think only a small minority have that privilege, and thats why the “very few” privileged have to sacrifice for the non-privileged. I reject that notion.

    From your article:Which begs the question, what good is a philosophy that applies only to the “very few,” often at the expense of the many?

    Which begs the question, how does a philosophy that preaches Individual Rights work to anyones expense?

    Which begs another question, What good is the philosophy you want that supplies to the majority what you deem “common good”, at the direct expense of the minority (in your view) traders?

    How does majority rule work out again?

    Keep evading.

  • JonCummings

    You get the last word, big guy. Revel in it. And don't forget, tax day is April 15.

  • peterpressure

    Keep evading a discussion about what are basic human principles, so you can favor “mob rule”. Hopefully it makes you feel less guilty thinking you can help the looters.

    In the end, Man will always yearn to be free. On April 15 I'll pay my taxes and go protest with like minded folk. http://taxdayteaparty.com/