When Good Albums Happen to Bad People: John Fogerty, “Centerfield”

John Fogerty is on very many levels the American version of Robbie Robertson. Or maybe Robertson is the Canadian Fogerty. Either way, they have quite a lot of things in common: both were the lead songwriters for Hall of Fame bands from the late ’60s and early ’70s known for merging rock and roll to other forms of “American” music. Both are underrated guitarists. After their bands broke up, both spent long periods of time in the ’70s and ’80s away from the studio before returning with critically acclaimed solo albums. And, both are well known as jerks who may have manipulated their band’s contracts for their own financial benefit, held lifelong grudges against their bandmates, and have put out a stunning lack of good music in the last 35 years, likely in part due to their inability to get over themselves and their own legacies.

Robertson’s story has already been detailed in an earlier entry in this series. As with Fogerty, most of the crap that can be be laid at his feet arose from him acting as default manager and voting bloc of one for Credence Clearwater Revival (or CCR for short). With no business background, Fogerty negotiated what bandmate Stu Cook (who had a degree in business) called “the worst record deal of any major American recording artist” with their label Fantasy Records, run by Saul Zaentz. It was this contract that became a touchstone for a band feud that caused John’s brother Tom to quit CCR in 1971 and become estranged from his brother pretty much for the rest of his life (Tom died of AIDS in 1990 after contracting HIV via a blood transfusion).

The band also lost a great deal of future income when John used his solo veto power to have themselves removed from the Woodstock film and soundtrack. While Creedence was one of the headliners of the three-day festival, John was unhappy with the sound of their set, the early time they went on, and the underwhelming response from a sleepy crowd who had been further lulled by a long set from the previous band, the Grateful Dead. CCR’s Woodstock set has become a footnote in time, as evidence of their appearance didn’t make it to the general public until a deluxe set of the movie and soundtrack were released for its 25th anniversary in 1994.

The year after Tom Fogerty left CCR, Creedence put out their final album, Mardi Gras, which in itself was greatly hampered by Fogerty’s dissatisfaction with the Fantasy Records contract. After being asked over the years by his bandmates to be allowed more voice in the band’s music decisions, he went from one extreme to another, and flat out told them that they would each have to write and sing a third of the next album themselves, with no creative input from him, and Fogerty only playing rhythm guitar. If they didn’t accept that all or nothing offer, he would quit the band. In a way, Fogerty was breaking up the band in forcing them to make a record that really wasn’t a true CCR album; but by framing the decision as his bandmates’, he seemingly was able to avoid blame and responsibility when the resulting album and tour stiffed, tensions continued to escalate, and the band officially called it quits at the end of 1972.

Due to the horrible Fantasy contract that Fogerty signed off on, though, John still owed the label eight more albums after the band dissolved. Fogerty was able to stomach making one more, but refused to create the other seven. Eventually, Asylum Records bought out Fogerty’s contract for one million dollars. By separating from Fantasy Records, though, which was assigned publishing rights for the songs Fogerty wrote while recording for them, Fogerty voided his own publishing rights to the songs. This became a crucial sticking point–not just in Fogerty’s craw, but in his career. Due to his ongoing hatred for Saul Zaentz and Fantasy Records, Fogerty refused to play any Creedence songs during his 1985 and 1986 tours, much to the dismay and sometimes anger of the crowd.

As an aside, it should be noted that as a “reward” to Asylum records and their founder, David Geffen, for spending seven figures to get him away from Zaentz, Fogerty gave them the grand total of one album before declaring that he had writer’s block over the financial hassles of the CCR breakup and his Fantasy hassles, and took the next nine years off. Mind you, Fogerty said this in 1976, four years after the CCR breakup, and more than a year after joining Asylum. Additionally, regardless of the publishing rights, as the sole writer of the CCR hits, Fogerty obviously was able to still get paid enough to (let me repeat) take nine years off from the music industry.

Finally, Fogerty’s pettiness towards his former bandmates continues to this day. Seeing the rest of CCR as siding with Fantasy and Zaentz by not actively trying to help him out of his contract problems (the contract that he made them sign), Fogerty remained estranged from his brother Tom until the latter’s passing, meeting with him on his deathbed, but apparently not willing to reconcile with him because of Tom’s friendship with Zaentz. Then, three years later, when CCR was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Fogerty refused to play with Doug Clifford and Stu Cook at the ceremony, instead using session musicians to back him (much like, to bring this full circle, Robbie Robertson not playing with Levon Helm at The Band’s Hall of Fame induction ceremony).

Fogerty has spent much of his post CCR musical life distancing himself from that band for various reasons. But while most of that work is usually received (at the time) by many rock critics as “a return to greatness,” upon further reflection, much of it seems quite passionless and middling; more the work of someone influenced by Fogerty rather than the man himself. Ironically (or perhaps not so much), his greatest true critical and commercial success as a solo artist came with the album Centerfield, which played nostalgically upon the sounds and memories of Creedence. So much so, in fact, that the first single (and top ten hit) “The Old Man Down the Road” led to a lawsuit from Fantasy Records that claimed Fogerty had simply put new words over the CCR song “Run Through the Jungle.”  Fantasy vs. Fogerty eventually made it to the U.S. Supreme Court, which  ruled that Fogerty did not plagiarize himself.

Of course, Fogerty could have probably avoided the legal trouble had he not decided to antagonize Saul Zaentz directly in the songs “Mr. Greed” and “Zanz Can’t Danz,” the latter of which portrays the Fantasy Records chief as a pickpocketing pig. “Zanz” was changed to “Vanz” in later copies of the record after Zaentz threatened yet another lawsuit, most likely this time for slander.

While “The Old Man Down the Road” was originally the biggest hit off the record, it is the title track that remains in the public consciousness a quarter century later, due to it being played at numerous major and minor league baseball stadiums throughout the years. Starting off with a pile of overdubbed synth claps (obviously trying to mimic the noise of the crowd), followed by the familiar twang of Fogerty’s guitar lines, the song is a light, breezy ode to the “national pasttime,” from the perspective of what appears to be Fogerty singing as his younger self (“put me in, Coach”), as the most recent player mentioned in the lyrics is Willie Mays, whose peak playing days came when Fogerty would have been between the ages of nine and 15. The sense of nostalgia extends even deeper, as the song’s first verse cribs two lines from Chuck Berry’s 1956 hit “Brown Eyed Handsome Man.”

Perhaps the high point of the album, though, (at least for me) is one of the other singles, “Rock & Roll Girls,” another slice of “instant nostalgia” that you swear sounds like a dozen other songs that you can’t quite remember but are on the tip of your tongue. With a sing-along chorus, searing sax solo, and a rawness to Fogerty’s vocal that has rarely been heard since, it may be the great “lost” song in his canon.

As mentioned in the first paragraph, the problems that have befallen Robbie Robertson as a solo artist parallel Fogerty’s. Fogerty, due to a combination of anger and a need to distance himself from his past, has spent most of his time since Creedence putting out records that do not play to his main strength as a writer and musician who combined the blues and roots sounds and feel associated with New Orleans with the pop sensibilities and folk influences of late ’60s San Francisco. As Fogerty moved away from this niche, incorporating more straight ahead rock, more country, more what have you, he became no different from a number of other lesser-level retro-rockers, like Dave Edmunds or The Blasters, to name two. Centerfield, on the other hand, shows Fogerty (albeit with a slick ’80s production over everything) returning to the sounds and styles that fit him best, and pulling it off well.

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  • Thierry

    I'm not sure about Fogerty's “stunning lack of good music in the last 35 years” – while Robertson's output has been pretty unlistenable (in part due to his singing “voice”), I thought both Blue Moon Swamp and Revival were really great records, with a ton of memorable songs and featuring the sound of Fogerty going back to the well without embarrassing himself (though maybe “Creedence Song” was too cheeky by half).

  • ted

    Very informative and engaging write up. I would have liked more detail on the botched record contract that figures so prominently in the story. You've hinted that it demanded too many albums but is there more? Did it pay the band to few royalties, were the royalties skewed in favor of Fogerty, did it circumscribe their artistic control, etc? Also curious as to why, if the contract was so unfair, did some band members appear to side with Zaentz over Fogerty.

  • nathan_az

    I listened to Centerfield and The Stanley Clarke Band's Find Out! every day the summer after they came out. I was helping my uncle build an addition to his house in Efland, NC, and other than attending a few Durham Bulls games and a side trip to Carrboro/Chapel Hill, those two tapes were were the highlight of the summer…I have no idea why/how two such different albums grabbed hold of me, but they did.

    I finally saw John Fogerty play about 1-1/2 years ago. I was not thrilled with dropping $80 on the show, but realized I may never get another shot. Some of the new stuff was okay, the CCR stuff was fairly routine, and “Rock & Roll Girls” was the highlight of the show. It was astounding how into that particular song Fogerty got. And he kept doing all these random heavy metal arpeggios and stuff. He was very funny, though I'm not sure intentionally so.

    Fogerty is not especially easy to root for, but comparing him to Robbie Robertson may be a little harsh…

  • georgemassouris

    so what was robbie robertson supposed to do? i reckon robbie robertson and storyville are fine records. i reckon mardi gras will tell you why john was in charge of CCR…it's a shocker bar 1 track.

  • http://www.popdose.com DwDunphy

    As with most things, it wasn't what they did but how they did it. Even in the most democratic of bands, the members tend to coalesce around a 'leader' even if one is not appointed – so when one makes that sort of declaration, then leads with an iron hand, things get ugly. There's leadership, and then there are abusive relationships, and I think Matthew's pointing to how in these two cases, pivotal figures opted for the latter to the detriment of the whole.

  • remrafdn

    Ilike his Blue Ridge Rangers stuff. He even learned to play the dobro. Love the sound of that instrument.

  • http://popdose.com MatthewBolin

    To each his own, I suppose, but I will say that I took a straw poll of other Popdose writers before writing this article, asking if they thought other albums were more worthy than Centerfield that I was overlooking. The response was almost a uniform “hell no”.

  • http://popdose.com MatthewBolin

    It's actually hard to track down the exact details of the contract. From what I've been able to gather from interviews with the two surviving band members, the biggest problem had do do with the usual problems bands have with record companies: amount of royalties, and distribution of them to the band members. Considering the complaints of the other band members to Fogerty, it would seem that what money they did get worked heavily/unequally in Fogerty's favor.

    One of the other pieces of the contract that relates to publishing rights was also apparently misinterpreted by Fogerty (again according to an interview with a former CCR member). He thought that publishing rights to his songs, for some reason, would revert back to him in three years time. That wasn't the case: Fantasy Records apparently owned them in perpetuity, which is the reason Fogerty had to give up his association with the rights when he left Fantasy. It was only after Fogerty realized his mistake that he then tried to renegotiate with Zaentz, who had no desire to change a deal that was working out so well for him. Thus, the tremendous hatred for Zaentz/Fantasy by Fogerty was supposedly born.

    As to why the other band members seemed to side with Zaentz over their bandmate? I believe it's because they had no actual beef with Zaentz: It was Fogerty who signed off on the contract, ignoring Stu Cook's advice that it was beyond his own business acumen (and he had the business degree!) and that they should get a lawyer to work with them; and it was Fogerty who locked himself into delivering the crazy # of albums when CCR broke up. The rest of them were free to do what they wanted.

    One other thing I left out because the exact details were also a bit hard to pin down was that Fogerty invested a good deal of what royalties they got in a Cayman Islands bank that ended up going under. Fantasy Records/Zaentz were doing the same thing, but according to at least one interview, Fogerty invested in a different, private bank that may have been mobbed-up. So, between the contract fiasco and the Cayman islands deal, and the least the other members of CCR sided with Zaentz as the lesser of two evils when it came to their music careers.

    (Again, I didn't include all of this in my column, because I couldn't find multiple sources saying the exact same thing, and didn't want to drag things down by posting a lot of “apparently”'s and “it seems”, regardless of how true the information might be likely to be.

  • Thierry

    Then again, you are talking about the people that brought us Mellowmas. ;)

    But I didn't mean that Centerfield wasn't his best solo album – just that the rest of his discography wasn't as worthless as the quote I pulled made it sound.

  • http://BusinessLessonsFromRock.blogspot.com/ John O'Leary

    Good pieces on Fogerty and Robertson. Reminds me of what I've read about Frey & Henley of the Eagles, tho a lot of this comes down to hearsay. I joined an obscure Hollywood band in 1969—Brother Nigel's Proxy Party (later the Berries, later the Band of Angels)—that had a deal on Fantasy, so I got to meet Zaentz who seemed like a straight shooter. We left the label soon thereafter and I never saw Zaentz again.

  • Matt

    I'd say that he's moved past all of this, and while there is no question that he hurt his career for many years by avoiding the Creedence material, he's now at peace with it all. And Deja Vu All Over Again (both the album and the song) was great. I'm not so much of a fan of the new Blue Ridge Rangers disc – it's pointless in my opinion.

  • Vic

    “he became no different from a number of other lesser-level retro-rockers, like Dave Edmunds ….”

    HUH!!!….Dave Edmunds kicks Fogerty's butt on EVERY level!

  • Dan

    I will always believe Zaentz tool advantage of John, Tom, Stu and Doug. Record companys took advantage of a great number of bands. We will never know the real story. John says one thing, Doug & Stu say another. John may have been a jerk, but it goes both ways. John says he has made peace. John needs to step forward tell Doug & Stu he is sorry for his part. John needs to step up and make peace. If he does not he will never have complete peace.

  • Linda

    John Fogerty's gifts were given to him by God. They were his alone. It was up to him to share them with the world, which he did. It was up to him to share or not share.
    To decide this or that concerning his music was not an option for him, it was natural.
    It was part of the gifts.
    As I read your views I immediately remembered the Bible verse which tells us that our gift will make room for us.
    His gift made room only for him. It was up to him to do what he wanted with it.
    I don't see where he he did anything wrong in his decisions regarding his music.
    It was and is his music.
    According to all the information you provided it sounds like John Fogerty simply acted in accordance with his gift.
    The gift that made room only for him!

  • Linda

    I'm adding to my comment here on John Fogerty's God given gift.
    The problems were, in my understanding, caused by others who tried to make John Fogerty's gift make room for them.
    The gift made room only for him.
    IE: If one has a gift to perform brain surgery I am sure the one with the gift isn't going to allow one he knows is unqualified help him perform surgery.

    The one with the gift knows what is needed to use the gift!
    John Fogerty knew what was needed, and he knew how to own his own gift, how to make it work.
    Along with his gift came the abilities needed to use his gift and manage it and preserve it.
    God bless John Fogerty!
    The man did nothing wrong!

  • Adam Zero

    I see a huge difference between Fogarty and Robertson. Fogarty should have been signed as a solo act (which he practically was, writing, signing and producing). He was a victim of the ’60s ‘let’s be a band’ mentality. Robertson, on the other hand, was part of a five-man band in which no part of replaceable. A good writer (sometimes great), Robertson seems limited in themes. Basically he seems to have “stolen” Levon’s life/heritage as the subject of his songs; all’s fair, I guess, but he couldn’t have made those band albums on his own. Centerfield, on the other hand, shows that Fogarty could make “CCR” music on his own (even playing drums). I like Stu and Cosmo, but they were merely adequate–unlike the Band members who were each exceptional in their own way.

  • Chasw

    Saul Zaentz was the manipulative jerk, not Fogerty.

  • Chasw

    Asking a few fellow editors is hardly a substitute for doing some elementary research. “Blue Moon Swamp” won a Grammy; “Revival” is highly-rated at Metacritic (and is IMO way better than Centerfield); and RateYourMusic has three other Fogerty solo albums, not to mention CCR’s “Pendulum”, rated as highly as “Centerfield”. You didn’t do your homework on the artist and it shows; I wonder if you’ve even heard some of these albums.

    Your article tries to hard to fit a complicated subject into a neat box (bad person/good album; Fogerty parallels Robertson). It’s really quite unfair to criticize a person for severe writer’s block and personal despair over artistic and business problems. I guess it’s inevitable that there would be a few negative takes on Fogerty, but your view is very much a minority one.

  • Chasw

    Fogerty says that he gave the contract to Stu Cook so Cook could have his father, a high-powered lawyer, look at it. According to this account, Cook then returned it to Fogerty saying it was fine, although it’s not clear whether Cook really showed it to his father. There is more than one side to the story and I’m not sure which is right, but you show a decided bias against Fogerty. And it’s nearly universally agreed that Zaentz was the bad actor, grossly taking advantage of naive artists, while Fogerty was at worst negligent in failing to seek independent legal advice (something most young people aren’t that good at unless they have a lawyer in the family).

    From NPR (http://www.vpr.net/npr/15045634/ ):

    SEABROOK: How was it that you weren’t paid artist royalty? Is that something that the record company can choose not to pay you if you, as it sounds like you might have done when you were a kid, to kind of signed a bad contract?

    (Soundbite of laughter)

    Mr. FOGERTY: To call it bad is a euphemism. It was so one sided and so unbelievably harsh. Really, in the beginning, we gave the contract to our bass player’s dad, who is a lawyer. He was part of a big law firm in Oakland that they represented the Oakland Raiders among their clients. Or at least that was the band’s idea. We gave it to Stu and said, you know, have your dad look at this contract.

    And as the years have gone by, I’m not quite sure what really happened. Though all I know is a couple of weeks later, we were loading up the old van, trying to, you know, on our way to some gig somewhere. And we all said, hey, Stu, what did your dad about that contract? And Stu said something like, he said fine. And we said, oh, what do you mean fine? Well, he said it’s okay to sign, you know. And looking back, perhaps, Stu never showed it to his dad. Maybe he just sort of – I really don’t know the real truth. All I know is that I’ve really paid dearly for that indiscretion.

  • Don

    Bolin raises (or lowers) Yellow Journalism to a new level,to what he inspires one to call Turdalism.  The person who gave us “Proud Mary” alone, deserves better.  That Fogerty gave us a number of almost equally marvelous songs deserves more.  The place where those great gifts to us all came from can also be seen as a place where Fogerty’s other powerful reactions understandably come from.  Zaentz fooled him.  Bolin punishes him.  Bolin’s column should be called not Pop Dose but Clap Dose in reflection of its venereal roots.  Or better still: Toilet Bolin.

  • Russ

    There’s some question as to whether the contract was signed WITH Zaentz or whether this was Zaentz’s interpretation of the contract that was signed BEFORE Zaentz purchased Fantasy Records.  There’s also some conjecture as to whether Zaentz was actually the band’s business manager at the time the contract was signed – and Zaentz was an employee but not owner of the label at the time. 

    Some context is also important.  A contract signed by 20-year-olds who have Viet Nam draft avoidance foremost on their minds isn’t the same thing as a contract negotiated by a 35-year old with years of industry experience. 

  • Russ

    Sorry, but no.

    The Band was loaded with individual talents which probably created some sort of tension and Robertson was the most forceful personality.  Probably to the detriment of the group as a whole.  But for Robertson, the tension was necessary – of all the solo records of The Band members, his are the least interesting in my opinion; his ideas are great but the execution comes off weak.  It’s as if Robertson needs some sort of competition to inspire him, total control seems to make Robertson polish his records to the point of boredom.  The rest of the group didn’t need it.

    In the case of CCR, John Fogerty was basically the talent.  All one has to do is listen to the pre-CCR records the exact same group recorded for Fantasy and they are completely uninspired in comparison.  But it was Tom Fogerty’s band then.  If Tom Fogerty continued to run the band, they might have had a much better contract with Fantasy – and no sales whatsoever.  CCR NEEDED John Fogerty to run the group, they were nothing without him.

  • musiclover

    so, snarky and superior Mr. Bolin, here is a great idea: you should post the lyrics of one original song that you have written. No need for music, no need to sing it — let us all simply read and judge Matthew Bolin’s version of originality. One song. I’d be very interested.  “It is easier to criticize than create”

  • http://www.popdose.com jefito

    If Matthew has to write a song before he can express an opinion about someone else’s music, then you have to provide a link to your own review of someone else’s music before you can criticize this post.

    Pretty stupid argument, isn’t it?

  • Gasoleen

    Saul Zaentz would sell his mother to the devil, as long as he was getting money. This guy is the scum of the earth.

  • Tile

    The Marshall Mathers LP won a Grammy. Meaningless. Watch the Behind The Music ep, Fogerty has this smarmy Huh thing he does…tons of attitude. Love Creedence but I still think he’s a prick.

  • desertfish1

    Fogerty’s song writing is not what it once was & he should keep his nose out of politics because he comes off as a big hypocrite. He nailed Bush to the cross for going to war but then turns around and has nothing but praise for this current socialist dictator wannabe & has said nothing about Obama’s dirty little wars. He credits Julie for damn near every new thing he does & many of his songs are weak in recent years. This wrote a song for everyone CD thats about to be released is a album of ccr re-makes for the most part. Look out whenever this happen’s it’s never the high point of anyones career. When CCR broke up the greatness went with it. Those times can’t even come close to being matched!

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  • Guy Smiley

    And now he’s dead!

    Good riddance to that guy.

  • Guy Smiley

    “Socialist dictator”? Please explain, jerk.

    Bush was exactly the kind of individual Fogerty wrote about when he penned “Fortunate Son,” roughly around the very time Bush was enjoying the privilege of avoiding Vietnam or other military service of any actual merit.

    Obama’s hardly perfect, no, but calling him a socialist dictator is insane. Please justify either of these claims. Are you suddenly more oppressed under him? Have we suddenly become a non-capitalist society over the past six years? Get a clue.

    So sorry that, instead of a White House completely beholden to helping the rich get richer, we have a president trying to balance the playing field a bit. Again, Obama’s far from perfect. But things have gotten better from the economic debacle of 2008, not to mention the unjustified invasion of Iraq.

  • Guy Smiley

    Four years later, you’re never going to read this, I know, but this is bullshit. Blue Moon Swamp is an album you need to hear. As good as Centerfield mostly is, Blue Moon Swamp is better.

    Fantastic album from start to finish, not a dud in the bunch. Gorgeous guitar picking, and easily Fogerty’s best solo effort. It was pretty successful in its time (about 15 years ago now), and was highly acclaimed, but still a very underrated album. It had been a long wait between his previous album (the spotty, but ambitious Eye of the Zombie) and “Swamp,” but just like the long wait for Centerfield it was more than worth it. Easily one of the best rock albums of the 90s.

    He’s had other solid albums since then — both Deja Vu All Over Again and Revival have some excellent tracks — but none are as fully realized as Blue Moon Swamp.

    Anyhow, this article sure seems one-sided in regards to the issue of Creedence’c contract with Fantasy, etc. John Fogerty really was CCR. The other guys were a good backing band, but that’s really all they were. Getting (John) Fogerty’s side on being railroaded into the bad contract would make for a different, perhaps more truthful, article.

  • Guy Smiley

    Hardly. Edmunds certainly had his moments, but he isn’t even a boil on the ass of John Fogerty. Edmunds certainly isn’t (and never was) the songwriter Fogerty is. Hell, one of Edmunds’ bigger songs was his cover of Fogerty’s “Almost Saturday Night.”

    Edmunds, while a fine guitar player who made (and produced) some good records, is the very definition of “journeyman rocker.”

  • Cliff

    John Fogerty was not the one who invested the money in the Cayman Islands, it was the other three members of the band who did this. Fogerty was against it & was voted down 3-1. I do think John Fogerty bit off more than he could chew. Stu Cook’s father was a lawyer & had offered to help them. That didn’t happen though. I do think that Stu’s father had done some minimal work for them before they were known as CCR.

  • Blorzon Blam

    Guy, agree with you that BMS was quite the album, and being a git man, loved the various styles, well played on the album. However, also being a well qualified health worker who has met Fogerty twice, and know his history intimately, he truly is a character I would not have to dinner. There is something deeply flawed about him, and his ex bandmates are the ones who have been made to suffer for his ridiculous personality and decisions over the years. His overbearing egomaniac style is the reason he is not more highly regarded, because he has put so many people off over the years, despite being a reasonably good musician and writer

  • Blorzon Blam

    Ignorant fool, playing with your tool. You love Shrub but call Obama a dictator? Take some medicine and go to bed.

  • desertfish1

    Go fk yourself you ignorant pile of shit!

  • Brenda

    I know this article is 4 years old, but I just happened to see it now. There is no comparison between John Fogerty’s role in Creedence and Robbie Robertson’s role in The Band. John Fogerty wrote, sang, produced, arranged, and played guitar on all of Creedence’s songs. The other three, though very likeable and pretty good musicians, were interchangeable. Robbie wrote most of the songs–but he sang lead on only one or two deep tracks. And every member of The Band was musically gifted. Three of them–Rick, Levon, and Richard–shared lead vocals. Also, it was Levon, not Robbie, who didn’t show up at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

  • Disqusted

    Wars? What wars? We are pulling out of wars. Are you really this stupid?

  • http://www.popdose.com/ DwDunphy

    Please check the publication dates of the posts before you respond.

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